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Gary: When a 2 for 1 be. Well if you are talking about two letters in the same envelope like these two it's, it is actually you are going to be very disappointed as a result of that.

Should we even attempt that the answer is yes but you, you should attempt, do I, do I know of a case where it has been attempted successfully. Ah, no I don't but I bet it has and yes I think you should attempt it, but the way you should attempt it I believe is you should try and sell them the bone density testing first, and with the markup and then go from there to the high price thing.

What I would actually do is tell people they could take a free hearing test over the telephone and I think you'd have a much better chance on that. But I think you could make some money at this, but for sure you only sell, want to sell one thing at a time.

Okay. Gary, I sell $197.00 home study course online. When someone exits from my order page, what strategy do you suggest: (1) down sell; (2) special discounts; (3) survey of why leaving; (4) other. I need to know, I know I need to test but which one would you suggest I start with.

People are going to do tests that prove what I am about to say is wrong in some cases, but in most cases I think I'm, what I'm about to say, most cases will be right, and what this guy should do is get rid of his order page and say it's easy to order. All you have to do is call 1-800 whatever. And, they, you, you should just get rid of the order page.

Okay, here's another one. What is an example of a three-step sequence on the web? Well, that would be a website properly designed, and if it is properly designed it is a sales letter and then it would offer them to make a telephone call to get a free book or free report/sales letter and then that would offer them the opportunity to buy something and you could continue it into step after step.

And then the other step should be follow ups to the people that rose their hand and actually I know that a lot of you people on here are only interested in online marketing and I'd like to say something about that.

You should not think of yourself as an online marketer or a direct mail marketer or a newspaper marketer or a television marketer or a radio marketer. You should think of yourself as a marketer and you should market wherever you can make money.

You know, if, if direct mail can make you money, maybe you should also be on the web and make money there, and maybe you should also be in magazines and newspapers and make moneythere, and maybe you should make money, you should be on television making money, but I do think that you should sequence those and I want to say one thing for you.

Another thing there are only three things that are involved in marketing. There is the product, the pitch and the delivery system. Now the product is of course whatever the product is. The pitch is the, the, the sales piece that sells it in whatever form it appears: in the form of a letter, a mail order ad, a piece of web copy; and the delivery system is the delivery system for the sales pitch.

There is an internet. The internet is really basically as far as marketing goes a delivery system. Television is a delivery system. Direct mail is a delivery system and I would like to write for you the delivery systems that will most likely give you the best ROI (Return on Investment).

Number one, you absolutely cannot beat direct mail followed by newspapers, and after direct mail and newspapers, I don't know where it would go from there but I actually think other than maybe matchbook covers; the internet is the weakest delivery system in the world.

Ah, you know I was recently working with a guy who is making a lot of money because he was mailing 30 million letters a day, emails a day, to generate leads and he would get about 3,000 responses which were worth about $10.00 a piece for him.

Now that game is pretty much over unless you want to go to jail, but do you know how out of 30 million what percentage or response to the 3,000 is, and if somebody could figure out on the call real quick. But it is like 1/100 of 1 percent and I recently, my most recent lead generating ad was done by direct mail and we were getting a 7 percent response and you take 1/100 of 1 percent.

So if I got 1 percent and I was doing a hundred times more leads than he is for the same amount of contact and since we were getting seven it was 700 times more. Not 700 percent more; 700 times more. And, what it is, is a matter of math. And people get lost on the internet because they think it is “free or at least very, very cheap.” You want a, you want a good way to make money?

Take great internet sales letters and transfer them into print. Just steal them and transfer them into print.

Michel: That's exactly what's happening right now with a lot of copies that I have written is that –

Gary: It's going to be happening more and more because I'm taking some of your copy.

Michel: Hey, yeah. Well, a lot of the guys that are actually going to, that have actually written copies for and we found out that they, they've worked really well, they've sold very well, there's a really high conversion rate, they're now converting those into direct mail pieces and using them in direct mail and, as I, yeah, yeah, that's a great, great, great suggestion there Gary.

Gary: Okay. Here's one. How do you suggest mailing businesses using direct mail? Would you use the business address or try finding the owner's home address? Would you use an envelope or post cards for the most effective response?

I actually, on business-to-business, would absolutely use Federal Express but in line with the question, I would, I would never send post cards to business-to-business people. I would use envelopes and because people change so much, what you want to do is address it not to an individual.

The first thing I would do, unless it's a giant mailing, is I would call the company and say who is in charge of buying widgets and then I would direct my mail to that person.

Now, if you're mailing like a million people and that's an impractical thing to, I would write to, um, you know, ah, the widget buyer for ABC Company, probably. And, our, you know, or the advertising department or something. But don't send post cards. And don't sent an envelope and try sending Federal Express at least if it's worth anything at all.

Okay, let me see what else I got here.

What do you consider the most important factors in creating packaging and marketingE-books online via sales letter websites? Ah, and, ah, he said he's a business partner of Timothy Brumlick. He told me to tell you hello. Timothy Brumlick is also a good friend of mind so I'd appreciate it if you would say hello back to Timothy Brumlick.

Timothy Brumlick has more stamps on his passport than Kissinger. I think he's in an average of three different countries a week. Ah, but to get back to the question. Ah, creating packaging and marketing E-books, I think E-books should be 8 « by 11 typed letters with a kind of a nice cover on them. Um, you know, a typeset that you might know more about that than I would Mike, I mean, you know?

Michel: Um, the format that has been the winning format for E-books is in Adobe.pdf format and the reason why is because Adobe.pdf which means portable document format is downloadable or useable or readable on pretty much every PC out there, on every computer out there, on every MAC computer out there.

Most of my E-books are on Adobe.pdf format and, and I, and basically what you usually do, and can very easily do is you buy, first of all, and, and, and every **** infopreneur on the internet has this is either a pdf converter software or have bought Adobe.pdf software and you, you can actually type out your book in any, you know, just like a regular, normal book, and then you would convert it into a pdf format. Um, that is the best way to do it .

And, and, what I usually do is, ah, we have, ah, what I do also when I write sales letters for example, is I create covers for the book even if it's an intangible product. I sort of try to get people a sort of an idea or a feeling of what it is as if it was tangible and then they would easily access that book that way and when you print it out, it also prints out exactly the way it looks. When you look at that on your computer, it's 8.5 x 11 and it looks like a normal standard book.

Gary: Um, you better sit down for what I'm about to say but I'm going to blow your mind. If you send me something in pdf I can download it. I can actually do that. Can you imagine that?

Michel: ****. I am totally blown away.

Gary: It says, hi, guys, what do you specifically do to get into the mind of your prospect. You know what you do is you just do a lot of work. You read the books that they read, you magazines that they read, if possible you go out and talk to those people.

Ah, it's just work. I mean, you have to find out what they're all about and, ah, and you go on the internet and research them and look at the other appeals that are being made to them and, um, it, it's just work. The answer to many of these questions is just work. Ah –

Michel: Well, here's my little shortcut. I, I do copy sometimes for people like, you know, ah, not that I have written copy for you Gary, but people who are like you who are not really people who, who type out all these answers to my big long questionnaire.

They prefer to do it on the phone and what they do is they record the call and get it transcribed and, but that's not where you stop. What you do is when you interview them, you try to get them to open up the floodgates of passion about their product and what I do often is when I get into a phone call, I three-way the call with another service called idictate.com, I-D-I-C-T-A-T-E dot COM at a 1-800 number that you call. It's free, toll free.

Ah, of course, they charge you a penny a word but they, they have a real live transcriptionist. You know, a lot of these speaking software that, that actually converts your speech into text, if they all goof it up, you have to train it and all that stuff, well, idictate is actually done by real people. And they send it back to you within an email attachment within a few hours but, and what I do is I, I three-way the call with that service.

What I do is when I speak with the client, I ask a few questions and get the ball rolling. Sometimes it's a little slow until I get them to become really passionate about their product and I, they, they're actually selling me on the product. And you can actually sense the, the enthusiasm they have for their product.

And, you know, copywriting is like what Zig Ziglar said, ah, you know, it's selling and it's selling in print and he said, it's transferring the enthusiasm you have for your product into the minds and hearts of your prospects. Well, when I do that, I get this transcription, you know, this transcript in my email which is basically half of my copy written right there.

Gary: That's brilliant. Ah, um, you know a year from now I will giving, I will be giving people that same type of advice and taking credit for it?

Michel: I know you Gary.

Gary: Okay. All right.

Michel: Hopefully I'll be retired and they won't **** there.

Gary: Ah, you mentioned in your, listen, I, this, this question, before I read it to you. I, I gotta, I gotta tell you, I had something happen that, you talk about making your day. This made my year. There is a guy named Eric Weinstein. He used to be my listings broker.

And he had files of hundreds of control pieces, ads, direct mail and everything, and he, he'd gone on to do something else. And he was about to throw them away. These are all winning sales pieces. And he said, I thought you'd, I'd give you a call and see if you'd want them before I threw them away.

Michel: Oh, yeah.

Gary: And I immediately sent somebody up to get them and it's two giant files of proven winning things, the best swiped file you can humanly imagine.

And here's the guy's question. Hi Gary. That was a fantastic teleconference a couple weeks ago. I wanted to thank you for your complete no BS, tell it like it is style. You mentioned in your talk the list broker who had given you all those folders of tested letters and copy.

My question: How can I get my hands on them? Could I fly down from Indianapolis, bring a copy machine and copy them myself? Seems to me there might be gold to be panned in them there folders. Thanks and regard. A new Sir Gary fan.

The guy's name is Mark Roselus. Mark, you can come down and copy them as long as you make a copy for me because I intend to sell this swiped file and **** swiped file and I am never going to get around to the time to do it myself. You know, I actually hire people to go to the bathroom for me now because I have so little time.

Michel: ****.

Gary: So, the answer is yes, you can do that. Ah, let's see the next question. Ah, they may not be world-class, but the letters I write or at least average or better. However, the response rates are always less than profitable. Where can I get more responsive lists?

I'm gonna delete that guy. I'm not gonna mention that guy's name, but, um, ****, I, I, I, I think, ah, the letters you write are not at least average or better. Um, if the response rates are always less than profitable, ah, I think you might want to go back to the grindstone and as far as getting more responsive lists, what you need to do is dialogue with a good list broker and, and let them guide you on the list. Um, but, ah, ****, they, ah, I'm not going to make any further comments on that.

Michel: ****.

Gary: Um, Michel and Gary, what exercises would you all suggest for a novice copywriter to practice getting into the head of a reader, and getting to know the target audience, and that.

I think I've already asked, ah, answered that. It's just a matter of work.

Um, this one. How can I raise my prices significantly for a high-ticket service without losing too many customers?

Um, the first thing you need to do is you need to make your product or service more valuable. And, by the way, if some of you would like to have a relationship with me, a business relationship and get on the good side of me, I'm looking for people to help me do some of this. I want to create a, hm, course on how to win in online poker. And I would love somebody that plays online poker to, I don't know, you know, you'll know what I'm talking about, Mike.

I know what I want but I don't know how to describe it. I would like to capture what's happening on the screen so I could put it on a DVD or video and advertise you will see actual hands being played, do you understand what I'm talking about?

Michel: Gary, you're, you're, what you're talking about is a screen-capturing program. I use it when I do critiques for copy and I deliver it online. It's a program called cantasia and that program is actually available, is at a website called techsmith.com.

You download it, you, and when you load up the program you click on the one that says record and it actually records what's going on on your screen at that point.

Gary: And, and, and, not just frame by frame, but like in, like the movement and everything.

Michel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, everything. It's, it's, it's actually the movements, the clicks, um, ah, and most of the courses that you see now, the infoproducts that you see online like John Reese's, Mike Kern and Ed Dale are all done with cantasia. It's, it's an absolutely wonderful, I use it all the time.

Gary: Listen. I have my, the, the young man I'm mentoring on the phone and I want to make sure he got that, so would you give that website again?

Michel: Absolutely. Techsmith. T as in Tom, E, C as in Catherine, H, S as in Sam, M as in Mike, I, T as in Thomas, H dot com. Techsmith.com. The software is called camtasia and I'll, I'll give you an example.

My website, I have a website called thecopydoctor.com and that website is a membership site where you pay 30 bucks a month and you actually watch me live going through a sales letter or a website and you actually see my mouth movements, you actually see me write the copy but I also have a microphone and I record what I say and I critique the copy and I tell it, I, I, I actually tear the copy apart but the beauty is that you actually understand what's going through my mind and what I see. It's like if you were looking over my shoulder as I'm actually going through the sales letter so that is the software, cantasia.

Gary: Ah, listen, Mike, that is great information and this guy, Caleb, I'm working with, he's really not the sharpest knife in the drawer so could you possibly give him that website again? I'm teasing him obviously, cause.

Michel: How about if I just email it?

Gary: Oh, okay. Just, just email it to me and, or to him, or both of us. Okay?

Michel: I will ****.

Gary: All right. Will you talk about the first sentence, paragraph of a letter, not that it's important, that's obvious; but your approach to writing it. Maybe some extemporaneous examples for some fictitious products or services.

You know, there is one opening line that is so good. I almost always use it. And it, it's, you know, it, it's, I'm getting bored with it, but you know, there's an old advertising truth, is that you will get bored with your campaign before the readers do and here it is. If you are interested in getting rid of your arthritis pain, this will be the most important message you will ever read.

Here's why. If you are interested in making money in online poker, this is the most important message you will ever read. Here is why. If you are interested in how to make money online without having a computer, this will be the most important message you will ever read. Here is why. I can't improve on that one. And, um, that's, that's a good one. It, it, then, ah –

Michel: Well, what I usually do, Gary, if you don't mind, what I usually do is I try to start a story, um, and, and the way I do that is by saying, you know, please, you know and you can say it in different ways, but it's like, stop what you're doing, put down whatever you're holding in your hands and just read every single word that I am about to read because this is going to and this major bring promise that I'm, that I'm making.

Ah, whether it's, you know, if you want to start out with, this one is the most important letter, I do use that a lot. Ah, I, I, I've done this form example on ****, traffic secrets for John Reese, which is I urge you to lock the door and take the phone off the hook and grab your favorite beverage and just sit down and study every single letter, word of this letter because it's about to change your life and here's why.

Gary: Okay. Um, the, um, I've listened to many of your interviews and tapes, etc., etc., etc., and read all of your newsletters and so forth, and so forth. It is obvious you have a lot of ideas, likely more than you can do any, anything with; hence, my question.

When you have say five things to work with that all seem exciting and interesting to you, how do you prioritize what to do? I tend to work on all five and get bogged down in all of that. Do you have a process that you go through to determine what to work on next?

You know, that was something that vexed me for a long time. But when I was in Los Angeles and John Carlton was working with me, we came up with what we call Operation Money Suck and, and we would just sit there and think what thing can we work on that's gonna make us the most money in the least amount of time and that's it. That's what we go for. And I think that's the best way to prioritize there is.

Okay, um, now. Here's a guy. Gary, there's so much stuff out there, I don't know whether I'm coming or going. Even if my budget was $5,000.00 a month. I don't know what's good and what's not. This host or that host. This auto responder or that one. This mentor or that one. The dumb webs, this dumb website or that one. The deal of the century or maybe all of the next 300 deals.

Bottom line, this is BS, so guess what? I'm not buying anything. If I do the next offer will be better. More expensive and useful bonuses will come with the third. And, but then two or three will come with promises to spill their guts and give you free all the tools they ever bought or stole for $699.00.

But if you wait three weeks they will sell you all that plus all their buddy **** for the special price of $4.00. Man, it's like incoming fire and nowhere to hide. Maybe if I took a vacation when I returned you might send me back the money for the newsletter that I can now get for free.

Michel: ****.

Gary: This is the ****. You know, um, I don't, I don't think there is an answer to that question. Um –

Michel: I think you did answer it already before when you said that you know, that the people that actually do make it are the people that spend some money on their own self-education.

Gary: Yeah.

Michel: And, you know, whether something becomes free in the future is not an important thing because the fact is if you buy something right now, and I'm not saying for, for, for buying stuff that has been pirated. To me, people who actually buy products and then go on E-bay and then sell it and, and, and actually willfully defraud people or willfully steal stuff, that's, that's, that's a whole different idea. And, and, and, and many of these suck shit by the way.

But if you actually have a product that later on becomes free, um, that's fine, because at least you were the first one to buy the product and start putting it into use and if you're not making enough money from that to buy the “next best thing,” then there's something wrong someplace.

Gary: Yeah. And you know what you need to understand is that you're living in the world you're living in and stop being a whiner about it. You know, ah, two days ago, I, I, I have a couple of cell phones and I use prepaid cell phones. And, ah, I can usually fill them up by just using my credit card but, you know, they, Cingular bought Bell South, they made it more difficult so I found a retail location and I wanted to buy, put $100.00 in prepaid minutes on my card and they, they asked me, do you want to spend $20.00, $60.00 or $100.00. I said, I want to spend $100.00.

They said fine, that will be $110.00. I didn't even ask them why it was $110.00. I, you know, it's not the clerk's fault, it's whatever, you know. I mean, it, somebody came up with a concept I think that is a good one. Everybody has a mental limit of money they're, they, they're not going to think about. You know, I mean, ah, you know, if I want something.

Here's an obvious one, an example. If I want something and it costs a dime, I'm not going to think about whether I should be paying a nickel for it. Ah, and, you know, there, there's a certain point; you should establish your point where you're not going to waste a lot of time and energy, some dollar amount, ah, that, um, the, ah, on that. The um, I want to, um, I'm about wrapped up with these questions. Do you have any more?

Michel: Oh, yeah, I, I, actually, I'm getting some more right now as we speak. Um, didn't you, first of all, I can ask *** you a few more but did you want to add anything else?

Gary: Yeah, I do. I do. Um, I'd like to switch to something kind of serious for a moment. Um, a lot of people ask the question about what is the difference between writing for women and as opposed to writing for men. And it's just a variation of my customer's are different.

What is the difference between writing for rocket scientists and people who like to buy Rap music? Ah, what is the difference between writing to carpenters and for people who are writing to computer geeks?

The truth is there is no difference whatsoever to writing any of the group. What you need to do is to be imparting information that's important to those people in the clearest way humanly possible.

And I'm going to give you a real good example of that. I'm going to guess that most of the people on this telephone call are not interested in knitting. So I want you to imagine that I wrote the most brilliant add you can ever imagine on the subject of knitting and you're reading in USA Today or someplace and I offer a great price which is a fraction of where you buy it otherwise and the copy is scintillating.

Probably no matter how good that copy is, you're not going to buy the knitting machine. In fact, you're not even going to read the copy. Now let's, let's switch to another example. Let's say that you're a man and your wife is pregnant and she's pretty close to being due and you have to be someplace; you just have to be. But you have your cell phone at the ready and you, you have her or someone else standing by to tell you if the, if your, your baby is being born. And lo and behold…

Michel Fortin

Chief Experience Officer at Supportibles, Inc.
A copywriter and consultant for close to 30 years, Michel was instrumental in selling millions worth of products and services. His most notable success is a salesletter that sold over a million dollars online on launch day. Today, Michel is a best-selling author, in-demand public speaker, and highly sought-after marketing consultant. Get his free report, "The 10 Commandments of Power Positioning," at Supportibles.com.

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